a candid conversation on career, passions and pregnancy

and all the ways i tend to "dream small"

My friend

halleta

and I often find ourselves in lengthy, impassioned conversations with one another. What are supposed be 15-minute catch-ups easily turn into three-hour phone calls about life, love and everything in between.

But when she asked me if I’d be her first guest for her Substack’s new interview series, I became nervous. Even though we were going to dive into topics that we speak about on a regular basis, I all of a sudden felt like I had nothing substantial to say as soon as a mic was in front of my mouth.

I still do feel that way. I have no idea if anything I shared in our one and a half hour conversation makes any sense or will be of interest to you, but what I do know is that as always, I just loved getting to hangout and chat with my friend.

And if you press play on the episode below, you’ll understand why.

halleta

is one of the most thoughtful, curious and interesting people I know (she is actually the first ever person I ever shared the ideas of Seen Library with and the first person to wholeheartedly believe in it — for that I am endlessly grateful!). And the way she interacts with people and asks them probing (but never invasive) questions — not just for this series, but in life — is why I love being her friend. She immediately disarms anyone she’s around because of her warmth and openness and with that, draws out what really matters to people, which I hope is apparent in our conversation.

We chat about my early career beginnings in social media and how that eventually led to the start of Seen Library, the reasons I tend to dream small, the unclear path of following new passions and also something very new that’s going on in my personal life.

You can listen to the full conversation here and read along with a few excerpts from the audio episode below.

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On my start and approach to social media

Halleta: I guess where I kind of want to get started is about your job… how you were a part of the first wave of social media as a business and you becoming influencer yourself — how you work on both sides. You do social media managing but you also have your own platform and brand. I want to go back to where that started for you. What did you like about social media? Did you feel like you could express yourself really easily on it?

Jordan: I went to school for public relations… and I always thought I'd work for a fashion PR agency… Just like pitching and doing pulls for press and that kind of thing. I always saw myself going into fashion PR. All my internships in college were to do with PR specifically. But as a backstory, growing up, I always loved social media… I had an Xanga. I was so into Tumblr. I loved Twitter. I kind of ate up every big social media platform that there was — I loved it all…

When I graduated from college, this guy that I used to intern for started a new agency. I didn't have a job, so I took a meeting with him, and he was telling me that it's like an influencer marketing agency, which wasn't a thing back then… From there, I started working on the brand side of things — doing shoots, reaching out to influencers on behalf of a brand, creating content, doing strategy… And I guess, alongside this career journey, I was also gaining a following on my personal account. But that kind of was by accident, just from working in the industry… Back in 2013 to 2015 everyone was so rabid for Instagram and everyone was tagging each other. I was taking influencers out to lunches and dinners and going to parties with them. So I think people were just interested in who these people hung out with and they were tagging me and then at a certain point I was like, Oh, maybe I should be more intentional with what I share.

Halleta: I love that it happened so organically, but also I'm wondering when you did start realizing, Oh, I have an audience of my own. Was it easy for you to understand what you wanted to share?

Jordan: I think what was natural was what I was wearing, what I was doing, where I was vacationing, where I was eating in LA… that kind of thing. But I also think I knew early on that it was important to talk about some things that mattered to me… In 2012 I was a passenger in a drunk driving crash. I broke my neck in two places. And I feel like that ties to, I guess, knowing the importance of a platform, even if it's small, because even back then, when I was going through that and I was sitting at home in a halo brace, I shared my story on Facebook… And with that, shared the dangers of drunk driving and how serious of an issue it is… I was getting messages from friends, but also complete strangers telling me, Thank you for telling the story, I've had a friend who passed in a drunk driving crash or I used to drink and drive all the time and now I see how scary it is. So even from my Facebook with like 300 followers, I saw that there was an impact in sharing the personal stuff or the stuff that mattered to me. So I knew that was something I always wanted to share, even though maybe I didn't know how I was going to do that or maybe even what topics I wanted to share…

Halleta: You know what I always thought was so kind of magical about you, honestly, is? People would always come up to you thinking you're a social media guru and be like, What do you do? How do you build an audience? How do you get more followers? How do you take your pictures like this? But your advice to everyone would always be, Find what you like. What's your point of view? What do you actually want? What actually makes you happy? What's your end goal? Who are you? You always ask people, What's your goal with this? I feel like a lot of people come up to you and they don't understand what what they want to be. They just want to be liked and they think social media will kind of be a way to do that. But I'm just curious. How do you how do you stay grounded? How do you not let the numbers get to you? I feel like I've never really seen it get to you in a way where you start changing your behavior for it.

Jordan: I would say the numbers — follower wise — never really… I never set out to be an “influencer” because I always worked for influencers… Social media is my job and I felt like the follower thing happened naturally and organically… But it wasn't ever something that I saw myself going into as a job necessarily because I was always a social media consultant, first and foremost. I think that the numbers thing didn't really appeal to me and I feel like I had a full time job, so I didn't want to think of my Instagram as my job, if that makes sense… I mean, thank you for your kind words and the impression I gave you. But I think the numbers that did impact me were the money and the income coming in from said partnerships. I feel like there was a time actually — I would say in 2018 or 2019 — where my mind did shift and I felt like I had to post a certain thing to keep getting brand partners. So I wasn't really appealing to the followers. I was almost appealing to the potential business because, again, I think that was my priority — work and girl bossing — and it wasn't so much… I didn't really care about being known. I don't think I cared about that, but I was like, Oh, it's an easy way to make income. And then I saw myself posting skincare videos and things like that, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I think personally, I actually hate doing skincare. I actually don't like doing makeup. So I'm looking at my Instagram, I'm like, Why am I sharing this?… I felt like I almost had to fit myself into this person who shares makeup and skincare in that way. I think I do it now sometimes, but maybe not as formulaic… But that’s I think when I had a turn.

I just remember really being resentful towards social media and I didn't like it anymore… You talked about a few minutes ago — what was my relationship with social media? I always loved it. It was always something so fun to me and then it became not fun. And then I had to sit with myself and I almost gave myself the treatment that I would ask a friend or a client, like, What do you want to share? What matters to you? And I had to write them down... I actually read a lot, but I never show what books I'm reading or that I'm even reading at all… What if I just inserted what I'm reading every so often because that's something I feel passionately about, that's what I'm talking about with my friends… I traveled a lot, so that was something I was really passionate about. Showing the spots that I would go to and the hotels I would stay in and the beaches I'd find and things like that… I had to write down what is it that had actually interested me and it wasn't so much the beauty or skincare products, but the books I was reading, the places I was traveling to, the causes that I cared about…

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On the origins and evolution of Seen Library

Halleta: You started hosting these blind date with a book exchanges with your close friends and and you invited me to go to one of them… Why did you start hosting those? When did the first idea come to you?

Jordan: I actually started doing these blind dates with a book back in 2015 or 2016 but it was something I was almost kind of embarrassed about and shy about… I had seen the idea of blind date with a book on Tumblr at some random small book shop or something. And I was like, Oh, that's a really good idea. I want to get my friends together and we meet up at a park and maybe we bring our favorite book and that's how we discover a new book that we might like. But I didn't know anyone that would ever be interested in something like that. So literally, it was me, my two cousins… and one or two girlfriends. It was cute for the time, but it wasn't like what it is now. It was, you know, old Trader Joe's grocery bags, thick Sharpie clues scribbled out on top…

We brought our favorite books and one friend brought The Great Gatsby and I was so disappointed… I was like, That's not what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to bring books we really love. Maybe she did like The Great Gatsby — but I'm like, we all read that in high school if that was part of your curriculum. I kind of realized I can't just invite any friend… I have to get people involved who are actually interested in reading or whose book tastes I like. It kind of evolved when I realized I can't just always have my best friends, because if they're not into books, they're not into books. And I started reaching out to friends of friends or acquaintances and who I knew that were more into reading… I did them in 2015 and 2016 and I think in 2019 — the one you went to, it was like a group of like, 12 women — and that one was really fun. And I didn't know everyone. My friend Michaela hosted it at her place and she was in charge of half the guest list and I was in charge of half the guest list. But I think that's when I realized, Oh, there's something magical about bringing people together who may not necessarily know each other and we can use books as the commonality that gives us a beautiful foundation to get to know each other more and it's not as intimidating as meeting someone for the first time and having to make small talk.

Halleta: That was a very life changing moment for me. I tell you this all the time — but I was in my mid 20s at that point and I don't feel like I had any representations of women in my life who were deep and nuanced and embodied being a woman…You're in your 20s, you're trying to think of: What does being a woman look like? What does that feel like? What kind of thoughts should I have? And I just feel like I was seeing such a representation of such rich, nuanced, complex, interesting women and I was just mind blown. But it's true, having the books there and the clues that you write for each book — it just allows a deeper kind of connection to be had. You automatically become more vulnerable and allow people into a side of you that maybe only you engage with because when you're reading, it's a solitary activity. But this is kind of like bringing a solitary feeling with other people…

Jordan: I think with the book exchanges, we obviously shared a book that really meant something to us. I think by then, I think there was a direction that we needed to go in… This might not be the exact “theme”, but I think it might have been like, bring a book that really impacted you this year. I realized we needed guard rails for these types of book gatherings because otherwise you might get a shitty beach read or The Great Gatsby. And so I think putting a question or a requirement of how we should think about the books we're bringing made it a little bit more specific. And then with that, I think that helped inform people in how they described their book on why it impacted them. And then when we're all choosing the books for ourselves, we're picking a book based on what someone else was feeling, and that in itself reveals this commonality that you have with them. And then all of a sudden you have something rich to talk about because of a book that you shared and the reason why you shared that book.

…

Jordan: I think there has always been something missing in my career — I had spent so much time working in the social media industry, both on the brand side, but also on my personal side, and I felt like so much of my time was sucked into this little world of social media that I always was craving something else... And I think that is where the initial inklings of Seen Library began…

I'll be candid — I remember coming to you with this idea and it was a physical bookstore, but now that I'm saying it, I don't know why I would even jump to that… I think it's because we were so cooped up at home in 2020 — maybe we were buying books online and there was no physical, interactive aspect to that. And I think maybe that's what I craved… With lockdown, I was reading a lot and very interested and passionate about reading books again. And I think what was missing was that physical aspect of that experience…

Halleta: And books that are representative of all types of people and all types of stories. I think it was actually having a place that represents these overlooked viewpoints.

Jordan: I think it was that need or that desire to see or have books that represented my background and the background of my friends and the topics that we were interested in and I did want a place where that's what the spotlight was on… I don't know — it was such an outlandish idea. I don't think I had any concept of how much is space I'd rent…

Halleta: But I think it's so important to go and look at that moment, though, because I remember you talking about this and being on FaceTime and you were so excited and it was so pure and I felt so excited to even hear about the idea… I'm not a very logical, practical person — if someone tells me their dream or what they want, I'm not thinking of the ways that it's gonna get done. I want to hear about what you want… Let's just dream it together.

There were conversations being had of, like, Jordan, how do you actually do this? It's a lot of money to have a space and who's gonna work there and how are you gonna stock it… People were asking you all these very logical, practical questions. But what I thought was really amazing is that you had a really pure desire and you told people about it. I am not a super practical, logical person. I'm interested in what makes people excited in their lives and in the future and what they want to give to the world. And I was really excited for you because it felt like you had something really pure that could touch a lot of people. But I was like, I don't know how it's gonna work, but I feel really good when you're telling me about this. I think that was such an interesting time because I don't feel like a lot of people got it. Even though you didn't necessarily know what it was and I didn't really know what it was, there was something special there…

What was that journey like? Of having this idea you don't even really know what it is. You have a desire. You know you want to give something to the world, but you don't exactly know the mode and how you're going to do it. What were those moments from having the idea of a physical space and then turning around and being like, Okay, well, it's not going to be physical space. Why don't I try something else? How was it being in the dark for that moment?

Jordan: I feel like it was almost a silly idea I took kind of seriously, but not. I think in that sense, it was pretty malleable. I remember we had a phone call three way and our friend was kind of shooting the idea down, which I'm grateful for… I learned two things: 1. Not everything is for everyone. And I think I realized, Okay, some people won't give a fuck about this idea and that's okay. I'm not going to take offense to that because it's just not something that they're specifically interested in and that's fine. And 2. I think I realized, Oh, yeah. That's true. That is a lot of work. And I think that's why I was so open to scratching that idea out… I think I realized when our friend was telling us, How are you gonna fund it? How are you gonna pay for it? How are you gonna stock it? I remember feeling overwhelmed, but in a good way, in that — I don't want to do that. I don't want a second job. So I think I had to go back to the drawing board and ask myself what is it that I wanted. I don't think it's that I wanted to be a bookstore owner, although that sounds very idyllic and I would love to be one and if the finances allowed... I think I had to sit with myself and think: Where did this idea come from? What actually was I yearning for? And I think what I was yearning for was a way to connect with people over books. And I think that's when I realized I had been doing that since 2015, 2016, 2019 with my friends…

This was post lockdown and I personally was craving in person, face to face time with people. I wanted to meet new people. I wanted to make new friends. Like many of us in 2020, I was dissatisfied with a lot of my friends and I thought books were a beautiful way to create new friendships with this baseline value system that we might share. So I was like, Okay, maybe I need to chill out on the bookstore idea, which is kind of really outlandish and maybe I just need to start from the bottom. And maybe what I actually want is to just simply connect with people again. And that's when I brought back those book exchanges with our friends. In 2021, I started bringing them back and I was more intentional with it. I was more intentional with who I brought together. I was intentional about the themes of the books that we were bringing. And then I turned a little mood board account into Seen Library.

And Halleta, you were actually the only person I think I discussed names with… And I think you liked Seen Library the best. And you were like, I actually feel like it encompasses everything that you want from it…

Halleta: I remember this quote that you told me — I don't know if you heard it from somewhere or it was just something that you were just embodying at the time. But you said, Do what you can with what you have. And that phrase blew open my mind at that point because I feel like everything that I wanted was what I didn't have. I was just like, Oh, I think I need this. And I need this. I need this. But I feel like you really embody that just in your own life — of doing what you can with what you have, with the people that you know, with the resources you have, with your own intel, with the natural gifts that you have — do what you can with those things. And I feel like Seen Library and the way it's grown so naturally and intuitively and so rapidly is because that's what you did. You sunk into all the things you're so good at, all the things you want to see in the world, all the things you love and you created this rich ecosystem that's growing…

Now to go back to the journey of it — when was the first public book exchange or book pop up?

Jordan: With Seen Library, I think maybe when someone sees it now, they feel like what it is now is always what I had in mind. But I really thought it was just going to be book exchanges with my girlfriends at parks… And if that's what it was five years from now, I was happy with that. I never imagined that it would become a public facing thing or for other people to enjoy because I couldn't imagine that anyone else would be interested in it… I didn't think that there was something in it for other people… I can't take credit for taking it public because it was the people that believed in Seen Library from the outside, who were not a part of these book exchanges, that saw something in it and wanted to support it.

Do what you can with what you have, with the people that you know, with the resources you have, with your own intel, with the natural gifts that you have — do what you can with those things.

My friend worked at the clothing brand called Vince. She approached me and was like, What about doing a book exchange for Women's Month? I didn't understand… She actually had the idea —Why don't you invite six friends. Vince will pay for it. We'll give you the funds to get pastries and drinks and we'll dress you in Vince… It wasn't about the brand partnership of it all, although I do love Vince, it was more like, Oh, someone from the outside is interested in this enough to share it with their audience…

Then afterwards, this small women-owned business called Space of Time reached out, and they were like, We love what you're doing. Would you be interested in curating 20 books that we can sell on our site? I really was concerned no one was going to buy them…Obviously I was happy to do it because over the years, I had accumulated a bunch of books that I really believed in and that I wanted people to read… So I curated a set of books for them and at the same time they asked if I would be open hosting a book exchange for their community… They approached a venue called Tea at Shiloh, a really beautiful, cozy, intimate tea house in Downtown Los Angeles. All of their events were open to the public so if we were to do an event there, it would need to go through their workshop process and everyone is able to buy a ticket. And I was like, Okay, well, no one's going to buy a ticket. But I was open to it because at that point I had maybe a few DMs here and there asking, How can I join these book exchanges? So I kind of knew people were interested but I just didn't know how many people would be interested…

The tickets sold out and then the book giving happened. We called it “book giving” because people didn't have to bring their own books. I was curating the books and they would get to take a book home. So I started those and I think that's when I saw how it could be for complete strangers to come together. It was almost more impactful for strangers to come together because I think there's something to being in a room with people who don't know you and you're able to say whatever you want and no one has a preconceived outlook or judgment of you. And so I think people felt really comfortable and safe and sharing things about themselves and I remember that first book exchange, there were tears…

We were going around in the circle explaining which part of the clue resonated. And there were five different people who said they picked up this book because of the strained mother daughter relationships as the theme. And I was like, Holy fuck. One, I just exposed myself to a room of 20 strangers, but two, wow. I had no idea that so many people were kind of experiencing the same thing — this yearning to be close to their mom or not being able to be understood by their parents… It was interesting to see the many themes that came out of those sharing circles and the commonalities that we have with one another.

And I think also just seeing how books really chose the person… At that first book exchange as well, someone picked up a book about the undocumented immigrant experience and it turns out that she was very involved with abolishing ICE and that movement. It was so interesting that people were able to really pick up a book on something that they resonated with or something they truly believed in because of the clues rather than any other outside influence.

Halleta: There are not many experiences we can have in life where we connect to people in these ways that are not people that are already close to you... It's kind of rare to have these things happen. So to create a room and an experience where people are invited to and can connect with people in such a deep and profound way and even you having an experience — like you writing the clues is also like being vulnerable. That also shows who you are, what you're drawn to. It just reminds me that these things about ourselves that are so nestled and so deep and sometimes so painful are actually really what so many of us are experiencing — we just don't have the ability to easily and openly share it.

I've been to a few of the book givings now — first of all, they're always different. It always is different depending on who's there. It's never a repeat experience. But what is always static is that people are eager to open up. People want to have the ability to pour themselves open and I think this also connects even to the pop ups you have — where you have the books for sale, where it's public, and people can come and they can choose whatever book they're drawn to. But it's not like the book giving where people talk about why they just selected the book. You still feel that in the air of people engaging with something. I feel like people want to be known by the insides of themselves and want to connect with people in that way…

Over the years now, you've done multiple book givings, a lot of pop ups and it's really quite popular now. And you have repeat people that come and they've become friends, and we'll get into that, too. But I'm saying this to be like — I think something is happening where we're marketing books wrong and we're actually kind of getting who we are as people wrong… People think we're all obsessed with social media and we're all disconnected and we just scroll... I don't know, there's not a lot of hope in people, but I go to these things and I see that people desire to be more. It's kind of like you're giving the books a chance to be known, a chance to be seen in a way that they cannot be seen by just a cover — like you cannot possibly understand the experience you're going to have with a book by just looking at the cover or reading a quote by someone saying, oh, this book is really good. But by using the clues, you can engage with the electricity, the magic of a book…

Jordan: I think that's what I've noticed with Seen Library... I think at our core, we want to be seen and we want to be understood. And I think these books allow people to feel that way and to express themselves once they feel that way…

Going back to what you said about we're marketing books wrong… There's been such a resurgence with books lately, which is a welcome happy thing. I think some books — specific books — are marketed quite well. Just look at the fervor behind books like The Court of Thorns and Roses. Those fantasy romance books and books by Colleen Hoover and Emily Henry… I haven't read any of them. Well, I've read one Emily Henry book and sorry, I felt like it was completely mid to be honest. But they're just marketed so well and they become New York Times best seller hits on the get and it feels like everyone's read these books. And I guess what I'm saying is books are being marketed, but they're not the books that I necessarily am interested in. And so I think with Seen Library, I'm not as interested in promoting the books that already are getting so much attention and that tend to go viral on TikTok —maybe some of the books are already popular that I share — but I think at the core of the books, there's something a bit more or a bit deeper. And I want to include them in the book exchanges or these pop ups in a way that it has a shroud of mystery and it has these clues because I think some of the books that I tend to share may turn people off. Maybe it's about a multi generational family or it's set in a war torn country, which doesn't sound fun and light and sexy — and they're not, but I think when we pull out the themes from these books, whether it's a yearning for belonging or a desire to break away from societal or familial expectations… I think that's what pulls people in. And I think that's what's important to me — showing people how much we have in common with stories that we may think have nothing to do with us…

How can I get them more into the hands of people and how can I make them more interesting to someone who wouldn't otherwise pick up that book? And how can we have discussions around that, and not in a book club way, because that format is really intimidating to me… I don't really engage with book clubs, because I don't know how to talk about books in that way. But I can talk about how a book made me feel. I can talk about how I saw myself in a book. I can talk about how I didn't know that in this culture, that they celebrate things this way, or that in this country, there's this societal expectation to do this — that's what interests me.

Halleta: So gorgeous, so beautiful. That's really what it comes down to — the way something makes you feel.

Jordan: That's what Seen Library is for. For those people who are intimidated by books or feel it's too academic or too out of reach or too scholastic. It's not really about that. It's about how you feel reading — Do you enjoy it? Are you learning something? Is it widening your view? That's what it's about. It's not so much like, I'm gonna test you on what symbols you found in chapter five.

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On dreaming small

Halleta: I want to go back to the idea of having a dream or a desire and the size in which you are comfortable imagining that dream comes true… I feel like it's so rare to meet people who, as an artist, has a big dream for their artist’s career. I feel like it's hard to find someone who is purely talented, who's purely in it for the art and what they want, but they also want to boom. They want to explode. They want to really have their art reach as many people as possible. And this expands beyond art, too. But I feel like as an artist, you want to have a peer connection with what you're doing… It just feels like it's rarer to find someone who wants to exist in both spheres. And I was telling you about that and you said something like, Well, maybe they're not dreaming big because they know for a big dream to happen, it loses its message or it won't be as potent, because it's for the masses…

Jordan: Like something has to be sacrificed.

Halleta: It kind of set off a realization in my head… I am someone who wants, who is an artist, and who has very large dreams, but doesn't want to sacrifice any amount of potency. But I realized, Oh is that why? Is that why so many people don't dream so big about what they want. And then I started thinking about Seen and how you're always so grounded with it… You're not like, Oh my god, let's make this as big as it can possibly be. You're like, I want to maintain what's happening. I don't want to lose my connection to it. I don't want to lose the way I feel after I go to these events. You're always checking in with yourself. You want to make sure other people are getting something out of this, that's true and rich and not imitable — that's a rare good feeling. And I just realized, Oh, what an interesting topic. Do we minimize our dreams? Minimize the size of them?

Jordan: I would say it's more common to dream big but I think some of the things don't take off because they're not for the masses. Does that make sense? I feel like I often don't talk to people who minimize things like I do. I don't know why I do that. Could be a problem…

I actually find more often that I talk to people who dream big and who want big things. But when I hear that, I automatically think, Well, what will be sacrificed? Because I think what I see for the masses, there's a difference. There's a difference to something that has mass appeal and something that maybe doesn't have as much eyeballs or reach or visibility. You and I talked about different examples of that, but I think even the examples that you shared have found such commercial success, but they're not big, big — by any means… I actually think a lot of people dream big, but maybe they're wondering why they haven't hit big, and I think maybe it's because they're not willing to lose certain things… I don't know.

I think, intuitively, I like to keep things small — with everything. I worked for a big global beauty brand at one point and I realized I fucking hated it because I wasn't heard there and there were so many things that we needed to hit… I've realized that I like working with small brands or brands that I have an impact with where my ideas don't have a lot of red tape and don't get diluted… I can't reach as many people as impactfully as I can when it's a smaller group. I don't know if that's because I'm not dreaming big enough or maybe I just don't have those desires. I don't really know what it is, but I think those are my observations. I think I exist in a very specific industry, right? Social media. I see the people who have mass appeal, who make the dollars and it's different than someone who isn't doing that. And for me personally, I'm much more interested in the person who isn't doing that.

I actually think a lot of people dream big, but maybe they're wondering why they haven't hit big, and I think maybe it's because they're not willing to sacrifice certain things.

Halleta: That's interesting. Looping this back into Seen and what I see in the people… Well, first seeing you have the desire and it light you up and then now seeing complete strangers be touched by this thing that you felt. It's been teaching me about the power of the things that we feel. And when you feel something so strongly, it lights some sector off in other people…

But I feel like I'm also witnessing something happen — I feel like this is a thing that can touch a lot of people. So I'm almost wondering maybe with these more pure and potent ideas that aren't like, oh, I want to make it so big so it hits everyone — when you actually do care about the individual on an individual level and make the individual feel something, I kind of feel like the world is shifting to a place… I might be a little idealistic here… Where that's actually the new mass — like touching people in the most specific way possible. Like the niche.

Jordan: I think it's hard to do it with Seen Library because it's not scalable in that way. With a song, you can hit more people — or a movie…

With Seen Library… Especially with men… Men love to be like, How are you gonna expand? But I can't and I won't… What, I'm gonna have some machine wrap the books and my mom's not gonna wrap them anymore? And someone was like, You know you could turn your handwriting into a font. But the whole thing is — I handwrite it with my husband in our house and that’s an activity that we do.

Obviously this doesn't apply to other things, but I think for myself, I know Seen Library has to remain small for it to be what it is. It's not a book club. I can’t have 500 people buy a book and then we all talk about it on Slack. I don't even know what that looks like… I don't think it'll be mass. I would love to bring it to new cities, but even then, there's a max that it could hit because I can only wrap so many books. I can only be in so many places… When we're talking about Seen, I just think there's just no question — it's small — forever — and that's fine.

Halleta: Oh, small forever is so beautiful. It's reminding me of your journey of getting to this point. You don't really have a certain idea of what you're going towards. You're in the moment and you're seeing what feels good and what feels natural and people nudge you in certain ways or you feel like, oh, maybe I'll try this. Maybe that is what the growth will be.

I'm just seeing — there is a need. I'm seeing people at these events. This is fulfilling some deep need in people. And I feel like more people need to feel it. But I do agree with you — you don't want to lose your touch.

Jordan: I think maybe the way it spreads isn't specifically Seen Library, but maybe I'm hoping that the people who interact with Seen Library will go back into their own lives and think about how Seen Library made them feel. What else makes them feel this way? And they do that thing and then they share that with other people… I don't know — I don't know if that sounds like super woo woo and fairy land... I think it's because the people I meet are so kind and compassionate and intentional and I feel like how they move in their own circles —they're touching people, too. I think there is that kind of desire and feeling to be seen and understood. And I think Seen Library gives that but I hope that people search for that in other ways, too. And that doesn't mean Seen Library has to be any everywhere, but if it sparks something in that person — great. And then hopefully they do their own thing with that. I don't know if that makes sense.

Halleta: It does. And I think it goes back to another thing we were saying —sometimes it feels though the world is so wrong. But then when you go in this very micro level and look at your life and look at the experiences you're having and look at the things you're doing and how you connect with people — that's how things change, truly… I think that's really beautiful. What is felt through Seen is perhaps beyond it. It's really a feeling you carry and the way you're moving through the world, which is all also what I feel about it as an entity. I don't really even see it as just book gatherings and pop ups and volunteering. I see it as like a way of moving and being and engaging with not only yourself, but other people in the world and even beliefs you have of yourself.

Jordan: Yeah. And I think to go back to the books — I do hope the books solidify that message that you're getting from these book gatherings… Like I read one book and it was at the right time and it was Severance by Ling Ma. It's a dystopian fiction that questions how we live our lives and it questions how much we put into our work and our jobs and productivity. That book switched something in my brain and that's actually what made me realize I wanted to do something. And that something was Seen Library… I'm hoping also with the books — and it's not going to be every book — they are learning something from a book they found at Seen Library that will help them move in a way they want to move and gives them permission… I hope it's twofold — the experience at Seen Library and the message they receive from the books that they get at Seen Library give them permission to move this way in the world…

On a personal new chapter

Halleta: I want to talk about what you're personally going through right now… You got a little baby bump… A little traveler is going to join us soon. I just want to talk about how you're feeling right now. This is such a special moment in your life. And maybe you'll look back and listen to this… How are you feeling about everything right now?